Are Community Relations Dead in GW1?

[Kook~NBK~]

I don't blame Regina & co. one little bit for not being as "hands on" as Gaile Gray was. I'm sure they got an earful about all the douche-baggery that she was constantly subjected to by immature pin-heads while she was the CR person.

Exhibit A: Guild named "Inside the__________ Gaile Gray" (you know the rest).

Exhibit B: Constant flaming her for breaking "promises" that were never promised by her or anyone else.

Exhibit C: Many of her visits to LA ID1 were laced with aforementioned pin-heads either flaming her, spamming questions at her, or making crude, disgusting comments. (Boy! Imagine if they had the ban-scythe back then!

The bottom line is, if people want a more visible presence of the CR team, treat the CR team with more civility when they do show up than what's been done in the past.

[Sirius Bsns]

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

The bottom line is, if people want a more visible presence of the CR team, treat the CR team with more civility when they do show up than what's been done in the past.

I would treat them with more civility if they actually gave a crap about GW1. They keep throwing up the "working on GW2" flag about everything while leaving PvP (esp. 4v4 arenas) to rot. PvP is totally imbalanced and they aren't doing a damn thing about it, (esp. in 4v4 arenas). I'm a 4v4 goon, and yet GvG is all they effect changes on; the changes are always in the form of a nerf, too. As a result, 4v4 suffers! I don't GvG/HA because of rank-discrimination/1337ism, and I have a feeling I'm not the only one that doesn't do GvG/HA for the same exact reasons. The day they actually give a flying shit about PvP/4v4 arenas and not just 8v8 is the day I give them credit where credit is due.

[AexIndex]

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

I don't blame Regina & co. one little bit for not being as "hands on" as Gaile Gray was. I'm sure they got an earful about all the douche-baggery that she was constantly subjected to by immature pin-heads while she was the CR person.

Exhibit A: Guild named "Inside the__________ Gaile Gray" (you know the rest).

Exhibit B: Constant flaming her for breaking "promises" that were never promised by her or anyone else.

Exhibit C: Many of her visits to LA ID1 were laced with aforementioned pin-heads either flaming her, spamming questions at her, or making crude, disgusting comments. (Boy! Imagine if they had the ban-scythe back then!

The bottom line is, if people want a more visible presence of the CR team, treat the CR team with more civility when they do show up than what's been done in the past.

Stop crying! The fact is that it is their JOB to keep in contact with the player base, if you can't handle mad people don't go into CR but become an accountant.

They are not doing their JOB for which they are PAID.

That is the bottomline!

[Ka Tet]

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

Changed from what? I never stated that it was alive, or dead. Talk about foot dragging. Apparently I'm too cryptic in pointing out our past behavior as a reason for our apparent current situation. So let me be blunt:

What is it you want our CR's to do? If being enagaging like Gaile was bad & if being restrained like our current reps are bad, what should they be? What will make you happy and content? Anything? Nothing? Or do you prefer the opportunity to get some name jabs in without offering up solutions to this apparent problem that is a great and urgent issue?

The thing is Gaile was not engaging, she was simply present. I believe the answer is simple, apparent and has been stated many times before. The expectation is to liaison between the devs and the community and actually express what the community wants. Failure to do that will cause the frustration that was endemic in the community before. When your job is to serve as the valve through which information flows, do just that. Misinformation and suppositions only poison the well. Take the time to get the right information and develop the understanding of what you're being told so that you can provide credible information to the community as well as the devs. When the community tells you time and time again about specific problems, relate those problems and express how strongly the community feels about those issues.

[Kook~NBK~]

Originally Posted by AexIndex

Stop crying!

No tears here. Just throwing in my 2 cents.

The fact is that it is their JOB to keep in contact with the player base,

That is true. But it's NOT their job to bend over and kiss the butts of the entitlementally challenged or put up with the garbage that GG did.

if you can't handle mad people don't go into CR but become an accountant.

Where did I say anything about "mad" people? I beleive the adjectives I used were "immature" and "pin-head." The examples I gave were of "douche-baggery" for which there is no excuse.

They are not doing their JOB for which they are PAID.

That's for their boss to decide. Personally, I agree that they should have a more visible presence in the GW community. My other post was simply stating that I understand why they don't.

[Hells Fury]

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

I don't blame Regina & co. one little bit for not being as "hands on" as Gaile Gray was. I'm sure they got an earful about all the douche-baggery that she was constantly subjected to by immature pin-heads while she was the CR person.

Exhibit A: Guild named "Inside the__________ Gaile Gray" (you know the rest).

Exhibit B: Constant flaming her for breaking "promises" that were never promised by her or anyone else.

Exhibit C: Many of her visits to LA ID1 were laced with aforementioned pin-heads either flaming her, spamming questions at her, or making crude, disgusting comments. (Boy! Imagine if they had the ban-scythe back then!

The bottom line is, if people want a more visible presence of the CR team, treat the CR team with more civility when they do show up than what's been done in the past.

Wouldn't know what was the situation when Gaile was ingame. But during the last mursaat/mantlecon event at henge of deravi people were civilised while regina and linsey were there as much as people can be civilised in online game. Sure there was a sea of questions and silly comments but i don't remember anyone saying some kind of profanity (or flaming).

[Fay Vert]

My problem with CR is the deliberate misinformation and outright lies when they don't want to tell us something that we clearly want to know.

(*cough* loot scaling *cough*)

[own age myname]

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

I would treat them with more civility if they actually gave a crap about GW1. They keep throwing up the "working on GW2" flag about everything while leaving PvP (esp. 4v4 arenas) to rot. PvP is totally imbalanced and they aren't doing a damn thing about it, (esp. in 4v4 arenas). I'm a 4v4 goon, and yet GvG is all they effect changes on; the changes are always in the form of a nerf, too. As a result, 4v4 suffers! I don't GvG/HA because of rank-discrimination/1337ism, and I have a feeling I'm not the only one that doesn't do GvG/HA for the same exact reasons. The day they actually give a flying shit about PvP/4v4 arenas and not just 8v8 is the day I give them credit where credit is due.

Yes, PvP needs work. But the fact of the matter is: GW2 is way more important. I know it sucks if you don't want to get GW2, but the fanbase for GW2 gets bigger every day. Why would they want to pull people off GW2's crew and work on GW1 (permanently, sometimes they help temporally)? It would just upset many of the people who are anticipating GW2.

But, if you really want to play a better PvP system, just get GW2. That's where Anet is fixing all their GW1 mistakes, like it or not.

[Karate Jesus]

Originally Posted by own age myname

Yes, PvP needs work. But the fact of the matter is: GW2 is way more important.

I would tend to agree, but with 4 CRs can't we get some better communication? I mean they're the "Community Relations" team, shouldn't they be....ya'know....relating to the community of GW1 as well?

To be fair, every German I talk to says Martin does an amazing job. Maybe, as English speaking players, we just don't his or Stephane's work.

Originally Posted by own age myname

But, if you really want to play a better PvP system, just get GW2. That's where Anet is fixing all their GW1 mistakes, like it or not.

I wouldn't put money on GW2's PvP being any good. Obviously, PvP is not really a focus for the game.

[Rocky Raccoon]

This is just a baited post and was bound to draw the usual responses from the usual people. It seems like the only people who have a problem with CR have a problem with anything else ANET may do.

[own age myname]

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I would tend to agree, but with 4 CRs can't we get some better communication? I mean they're the "Community Relations" team, shouldn't they be....ya'know....relating to the community of GW1 as well?

To be fair, every German I talk to says Martin does an amazing job. Maybe, as English speaking players, we just don't his or Stephane's work.

I do agree they should communicate with GW1Guru. Because most of the people on GW2Guru have played/still play GW1.

I wouldn't put money on GW2's PvP being any good. Obviously, PvP is not really a focus for the game.

Well, no one besides Anet knows what the PvP is like outside of; WvW, and apparently you can "hot-join" another PvP format, like a FPS.

[Shanaeri Rynale]

I think part of the issue is that people expect different things from the CR team.

I do think we get more information in the current style(even if it's not always on here) baring in mind how little is going on now compared to 2005/06. But we have lost the sense that the devs are playing the game with us, that they are fully engaged with the general game population.

As a normal player I just don't get a feeling that the devs are playing the game(or even playing the same game as us) and it's a feeling I've had for sometime. Now I know for some they expect a certain detachment from the Devs and players and I can understand their point of view. However as a player who remembers the Gaile and the Frog I think GW has been a poorer experience since it ended. But as I said, I've felt the quality of information has been consistently good(account hacking scandal excepted).

What sort of CR do I want. I want good,timely, clear information AND a feeling that the developers are playing the game, joining in with events(both official and player) and experiencing the same issues as the rest of us. In a new MMO such as GW2 such an approach is IMHO essential.

[R_Frost]

Originally Posted by own age myname

I do agree they should communicate with GW1Guru. Because most of the people on GW2Guru have played/still play GW1.

Well, no one besides Anet knows what the PvP is like outside of; WvW, and apparently you can "hot-join" another PvP format, like a FPS.

thats where my earlier post in this thread applies, i feel the the timing was wrong for the division of GW1Guru/GW2Guru. they should of just kept the GW2 stuff as a sub forum here til we have a real release date. yeah im sure the CR team probably has a look over these forums but in the state of the game and these froums its pretty clear the activity is off bigtime.

as a player of perfectworld, i play that game when i need a break from GW, the PvP format there allows for joining in after a battle has started.

[Missing HB]

Originally Posted by own age myname

Yes, PvP needs work. But the fact of the matter is: GW2 is way more important. I know it sucks if you don't want to get GW2, but the fanbase for GW2 gets bigger every day. Why would they want to pull people off GW2's crew and work on GW1 (permanently, sometimes they help temporally)? It would just upset many of the people who are anticipating GW2.

But, if you really want to play a better PvP system, just get GW2. That's where Anet is fixing all their GW1 mistakes, like it or not.

Thing is they say they're working on GW2 since end of 2008, and there was almost no serious update in pvp since that time. The same excuse came everytime. To crown it all , they even deleted some formats to bring some completly useless one.

So well , we can't know if it's made on purpose ( no update because they plan to delete arenas in future , for servor space maybe ..), but i highly doubt GW2 will be released soon ( maybe end of 2011 if lucky), and those formats( except GvG) will just get totally empty before that time..

[zwei2stein]

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

As a normal player I just don't get a feeling that the devs are playing the game(or even playing the same game as us) and it's a feeling I've had for sometime. Now I know for some they expect a certain detachment from the Devs and players and I can understand their point of view. However as a player who remembers the Gaile and the Frog I think GW has been a poorer experience since it ended. But as I said, I've felt the quality of information has been consistently good(account hacking scandal excepted).

What sort of CR do I want. I want good,timely, clear information AND a feeling that the developers are playing the game, joining in with events(both official and player) and experiencing the same issues as the rest of us. In a new MMO such as GW2 such an approach is IMHO essential.

Considerig War In Kryta, first statemet is a bit off: It really feels that whoever created it, did so with all intetions of playing through it.

Seccond part ... problem is that whe devs play friends with players, you are bound to get misinformation and unclear information because of conflictig interests: ("i want to be with players, want them to like me" vs. "i have to be gatekeeper of information"). ("playfull" Gaile, while having great event presence got too ... playfull, teasing and mysterious when asked simple questions to which aswers could as well be "we are not going to tell you that now" or "yes" or "no" instead of "tee-hee, that certaily is a possibility, isn't it" (something that infuriates people when they make serious business of some issue).

But this thread is a bit pointless: what exactly do you expect them to tell us? Because it seems that there is not much to tell us except that they are still alive and servers still plugged.

[Shanaeri Rynale]

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Considerig War In Kryta, first statemet is a bit off: It really feels that whoever created it, did so with all intetions of playing through it.

As I said, it's a personal feeling and while the WIK stuff is great, the subject and topic was about CR's participation in the game world.

Seccond part ... problem is that whe devs play friends with players, you are bound to get misinformation and unclear information because of conflictig interests: ("i want to be with players, want them to like me" vs. "i have to be gatekeeper of information"). ("playfull" Gaile, while having great event presence got too ... playfull, teasing and mysterious when asked simple questions to which aswers could as well be "we are not going to tell you that now" or "yes" or "no" instead of "tee-hee, that certaily is a possibility, isn't it" (something that infuriates people when they make serious business of some issue).

I think people put too much onus on Gaile, without checking their expectations and I'll admit that at the time I also expected some huge revelation every time I saw that green or purple text on screen. We, often didn't distinguish between CR Gaile and player Gaile and part of that mix up was down to us.

What Anet then did was to remove pretty much the 'player' side of CR maybe because of the personalities now in that role but maybe it's because they couldn't guarantee or didn't want us the players to mix them up anymore. That was a perfectly understandable thing to do.

Now, part of this mix up was historical, as early on in the games life pretty much every Gaile or Frog visit did contain some amazing tidbit because the game was very much a work in progress, with whole teams behind it's development.

Once EOTN came out, the house was effectively built and all the exciting stuff like hey, 'next week we're putting a TV' in has gone and all that's left is 'we need to change the guttering'.

But this thread is a bit pointless: what exactly do you expect them to tell us? Because it seems that there is not much to tell us except that they are still alive and servers still plugged.

Exactly, see my above point. BUT and yes this belongs I guess in a GWuru2 thread what sort of CR we have now is probably the sort of CR we'll get then. My point is, is that in my view it would be a great shame(and missed opportunity) if the whole 'we're playing the game with you' aspect that helped make GW unique is not carried forward into GW2 as I think the game and community will be substantially poorer for it.

But, for this to work, we the playerbase need to do our part and acknowledge that sometimes the Devs/CR are there for fun and sometimes they are there to work

[JR]

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Yes, I would. However, I would have pushed the development team to create an official forum where I had the administrator rights to delete comments and would have tied forum accounts to game accounts so people were responsible (read:bannable) for trolling.

There is very little that would get deleted on an official forum that isn't deleted here.

Tying forum accounts to game accounts will go some of the way to keeping people in line, but it's really not a solid solution or a replacement for a healthy community. It still helps though, so I'll give you that.

What you don't mention is the amount of work involved in running an official forum. There are some 30-40 staff here on Guru, and the population has declined significantly. How many staff do you think we had back when Guild Wars was in its prime? How much do you think it would cost a company to hire and maintain a similar workforce?

ArenaNet could open a forum and try to run with a volunteer program, sure, though that would require them hiring another two or three full time community staff just to get it off the ground. Then there's the issue of responsibility: Every rookie moderator on the official forum would be a representative of ArenaNet, and there's huge potential for embarrassment when you dealing with dozens of volunteers with limited commitment or investment.

And that, my friend, is just one tiny facet of the arguments for and against games having official forums. It's a lot more complicated than 'they just should to help stop trolls'.

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

You know...what every.other.game.does.

Indeed, and many MMOs with official forums also have large, well run fan forums - some of them even bigger than the official ones. For example: Aionsource has always been bigger than the official Aion forum, and WarhammerAlliance has always been bigger than the official Warhammer Online forum (though admittedly it had a head start).

Experienced fansite developers can provide a great service for free, and it boggles my mind when developers try to compete with them. For what? Control of the message? Unless you're straying into dangerous areas like censorship or manipulation any fansite owner will be entirely cooperative. Stability? Develop stronger relationships with the fansite owners/admins.

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I understand that, but we have a 4 man CR team (Regina, Emily, Stephane, and Martin), and I assume that Martin will be mostly handling Gamescon (since he speaks German), which leaves 3 other CRs who are doing....what, exactly? By "what", I mean besides commenting on GW2Guru.

Aside from convention season preparations (which is a massive workload by itself) I imagine that the focus of the community team has shifted largely to Guild Wars 2. It's their next big leap, and they will be doing everything they can to ensure it is a resounding success. There are four of them, though only three are dedicated community managers, and two of those have a focus on other language groups. That's stretching it already, and you are suggesting they continue to give full support to both games?

Should they be communicating more with the Guild Wars community? Maybe. You seem to think GW:B requires more communication from them, I'm really not sure. In purely practical terms should it be a priority for them? Probably not, as if they were to increase engagement with the Guild Wars audience again it would again require hiring more community staff. Finding someone who is qualified and suitable would take months, not to mention getting them settled in and actually doing the job - by which point Guild Wars 2 might already be dragging people away by the hundreds.

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

And just so everyone is aware, the mark of a good CR team is one that keeps in touch with players EVEN WHEN there's not much going on.

You are basically advocating that community managers waste their time with idle chatter, as if pure attention is the magic solution for community woes. I'm afraid that's not the case, however much many people on this forum live for it.

Attention does help in the short term, but that's it. Instead of 'we need more communication' it soon becomes 'we need better communication', as people realize that nothing is actually being solved. Quantity of communication is no substitute for quality - and can actually be detrimental: Constant small talk will water down the significance of your communication, meaning when you need impact it wont be there. It also builds an expectation for that level of engagement, which you might not be able to sustain when things get busy, leading to even more disappointment.

There is a huge amount of depth in the community management role, most of which is invisible from the outside. It's very easy to be a community manager who appears to engage with the community regularly, a friendly face who offers consolation or a pat on the back. What's not easy is being a community manager who is actually effective at getting things done, making real differences.

I'd much rather have the latter, at the cost of the hugs and sunshine that come with the former, and luckily that is exactly what we have.


This thread reminds me of that famous phrase 'a little learning is a dangerous thing'. You know enough to be opinionated and upset, but not enough to really be aware of what you are talking about.

[Karate Jesus]

Originally Posted by JR

HOLY SWEET GOD WALL O' TEXT

JR, you seem to be under the impression that I was discounting the work that GWGuru does when commenting on the importance of an official forum. However, that could not be farther from the truth. Honestly, I believe that GWGuru has done an amazing job helping to build the community and replace what was lost by the lack of an official forum.

That being said, there is more responsibility put on CRs when there is an official forum. They couldn't ignore it in the same way they have Guru in the past, even if their only actions were to delete a thread rather than responding, that would still be a reply in itself.

And please don't hear all of my posts as purely sophomoric whining. The truth is that I appreciate the CR team and the many things they've done. From what I hear, Martin is nothing short of amazing with the German community, and the others have done great things as well. My intention wasn't to cause massive panic or trolling. I was just curious as to the opinion of the community concerning our current CR status.

I understand that games age and that CR is less needed now in GW than it is for GW2. I was just curious if the sense of abandonment that seems prevalent among players now was self-appointed by our own community's misappropriated anger or if it was just another "sign-of-the-times."

Reading any more into my comments would be rather difficult; however, perception is different for each person so I hope my posts weren't taken the way you seemed to describe them.

[Silverblad3]

JR you are right on several points, however I really do not think the mature and core player base are crying out for hugs and kisses from CRs.

What would be useful is regular updates. Examples include (and are certainly not limited to):

1. HA new map status?
2. Timeline for GWB content (general ideas or something is coming)
3. Messages on what the live team are working on currently X, Y and Z.
4. Updates on updates........ on schedule, delayed and the like.
5. Interview with Anet staff (like Regina did with the fashion developer for GW2) but with the live team...
6. There is more I am sure, just a few I can roll off.

Remember, this is the current audience that may or may not buy GW2. There are no current customers for GW2, there are thousands still for GW and depending how you relate to them may bring more of them to GW2 when it comes.

I know CR is tough, but when Regina says she use to have weekly meetings and decides what she relates to the community..and we basically get nothing....Okay we have had some updates from time to time..Thank you, but your customers would like to know more, they are eager for the information, suck them in and ultimately you will have a customer base who will sing about GW and GW2 rather then having some core fans and players feeling disillusioned and neglected due to no regular information or updates.

Silver

[zwei2stein]

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

But, for this to work, we the playerbase need to do our part and acknowledge that sometimes the Devs/CR are there for fun and sometimes they are there to work

Remember that devs have private accounts that they use to play without consequences of being official figure (so that they can actually join pug or afk at 9 rings ...).

Guess what you want is official staff presence: It would be awesome if someone wearing "GM" tag showed up at district 1 during events and made it a bit more lively with his gm powers. (Remember Mursaat Rally player event where devs cam and actually spawned mursaat?)

But somehow it does not feel right for CR in their CR persona to do this kind of stuff. Especially when they are going to be facing community that is always angry about something.